Understanding Production Incentives

0:00  

Welcome to another episode of On Production, where we dive into the fascinating world of production. Today we're privileged to host my colleague here at Wrapbook, Ryan Broussard, who's an expert in film and production incentives. Ryan has a wealth of knowledge on various legislation across the United States that enable filmmakers to receive funds to put towards their productions. He's often found consulting with filmmakers, and producers reviewing budgets, and advocating for productions to shoot in particular states that would best serve their projects. Not only is he familiar with filing for these incentive programs, he's also very well versed in the reporting requirements and the specific prerequisites for each state. Very excited to have you on production. Ryan, thanks for being here.

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0:46  

Of course, no, Thanks for having me. And, like you said, so excited to be not only on this podcast, but to be a part of the Wrapbook family. So this great, amazing way to kick off and super excited to talk to you.

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1:00  

That's awesome. Well, the first thing I'd love to know is a little bit about you. How did you find your way into the niche world of film and production incentives?

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1:08  

Well, it's a very long story. I guess the long and short of it is, I'm based in New Orleans and Louisiana, which as many people watching in you may know does have a very prominent tax incentive, and has for quite some time, that was actually one of the first to habit and there's, it's debatable whether it is the first domestically to have it. Canada was, of course, the big, you know, people in California, were talking about runaway production, they were going to Canada at the time, and there really weren't many domestic incentives. And then Louisiana happened, Georgia and New Mexico were really the anchors that appeared domestically. So I was based here. And part of the advantage of having a person that knows how to navigate it, if you worked for a production payroll company, was that certain fees could qualify. And then of course, you could help navigate your clients through that process. So I was brought into a particular company. I worked for Axiom, if anybody remembers them years and years ago, they are a production payroll company and work for them. And they brought me in, I knew somebody that worked there at the time. And she was looking to basically spread the arm of the company to two different states, which honestly, she was a little ahead of her time with. And so I worked there for a while. And I wasn't really given too much guidance, except like, hey, get to know people around here. So I really took it upon myself to start teaching myself the legislation, teaching myself how it works, how film works, visiting people on set, getting inundated with the Film Office and the rules of the programs. And then I started kind of dipping my toe into other programs. Once I once axiom unfortunately, went under, I did go and work for entertainment partners for close to seven years and had a very good time there and learned quite a bit, I was in their incentives division, and, you know, would would help with their website, their newsletter, once again, helping clients navigate the centers and start broadening my horizon outside of Louisiana. So start realizing all these states have different incentives. And I kind of do that when updating that sort of website there. You have to learn these things to kind of boil it down to more layman's terms, because some of this legislative language is extremely complicated and robust and convoluted. And so sometimes you have to just kind of interpret it correctly, and do it on simple terms. So that really kind of got me inundated with learning how to read it, how to even write it, how to apply it to production after entertainment partners, left on very good terms and decided to work for a company called caps as they were filling out their film and television division there and had a great time there I've met a lot of people who I work with still today including Kimber Zack who works for Wrapbook as well and super happy to be working with her again. And there I was able to really showcase my sales traits, so to speak, and start using and sentence to work with sell the selling of production payroll, so I was able to wear both hats, which quite frankly, I loved, and kind of could never go back like let's be honest reading some of this legislation, which I'm sure we'll talk about today. It can bog you down and really start to be like, Oh my God, my brain is melting. I'm reading this stuff and I've been reading it for two hours. So it was kind of nice to flip on the sales hat and then vice versa. If you get tired of people talking with you about Production payroll or whatnot, then it's like, let's talk about incentives. And let's talk about your budget and creatively, where are you filming. So that was really a big eye opener for me. And now I'm at Wrapbook, which I'm super happy to say. And one other thing with the history, I think that's important is, with media services, slash casting crew, I worked a lot. That was where I learned the most and did the most with budgets, and taking apart people's budgets and figuring out where we can film where we should, if we can finance their film, I worked a lot with finance years, both in house at the time, and third party financiers writing opinion letters to hold it. So all of that was very, very good training ground for him.

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5:41  

Ryan, that is an extremely extensive background, and we're really happy to have you here with Wrapbook. Could you give us a broad overview of what film and production incentives are for those who might be unfamiliar?

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5:55  

Sure. So I'm sure people have heard the term, or if you've worked on set or with a producer or budget, something's come up about it. But basically, production incentives are a way that a state says, We want you to film here. And we will incentivize you through money, of course, for you to film here. Now, you would say, Well, why would they do that? Well, the reason being is because when somebody films in an area, and there's been many studies about this, and some, they go back and forth, whether they're advantageous or not, but at the end of the day, whenever a state gets rid of a program, they always try to get it back. It just seems like when one goes away, they spend the next five years trying to get it back. Florida Case in point, we'll talk about that a little later. But so they understand that the economic impact of a production filming in the area is like dropping an economic bomb. So it's like these productions come in. These people get per diem, the crew and the cast, they get per diem, they get money to spend, they come from out of state want to eat at restaurants, stay at hotels, they're they're shopping at boutiques that are coming there. They get paid. I mean, this industry pays people well, even on the lowest tier of people gets paid, you know, well, these people are getting paid well, they're coming into the area, and they want to spend their money, and they're going to spend their money. So I think that the states recognize that. And they say, We will reward you for filming here. Now, it's important for production to realize like, oh, well, you know, how much will we get back? How much will it offset our budget? And really do the math to figure out, will it be cost conscious for them to film in an incentive area, but that's why people go to an incentive. And there's different types of incentives, and anon OCAM, if you want to get into that today, but there's different types that are available, and kind of depending on your current situation. That's kind of the one you need to chase after.

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8:01  

It's super helpful. Yeah, we should dig into it. I'm really curious, you know, to dig into the mechanics of these film incentives, because I think for many people listening, like, it can feel, at least from my view, when I was producing, like, I knew that these incentives existed, but it felt overwhelming to take advantage of them. And so like, having you as a resource, and like even being able to understand them a little bit better, hopefully can allow them to be better utilized. I mean, can you walk us through how film in production incentive programs generally work?

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8:35  

Sure. So there's different types. There's really, what four main ones, so there's tax credits, and then in tax credits, there's refundable tax credits and transferable tax credits. When you hear tax credits, that's when people start getting a little scared. So like, what do I have to do with taxes? I, you know, I'm, I'm just coming to film in this particular state, do I need to do a tax return? What should I do? So with refundable, fully refundable motion, make that distinction, you can get dollar for dollar back, what you spend on the state aligned with whatever percentage they're gonna give you back. So if the state says they'll give you back 25%, on what you spend in New York, or New Mexico, for example, their refundable credits, then you would get that amount back, if you met the minimum criteria. Based on the local spend that you're doing, you would have to file a tax return. They offset your liability with what your production company or the person applying has in the state, which to be frank would be nothing if you're coming from out of state or little to nothing. So there's really nothing to offset the tax credit with. So since it's fully refundable, then they give you a check after you've done that tax return. And once again, there's other minimum requirements. It's not as simple as it sounds, but it's not as complicated as people fear. But like doing an audit and what have you, once you do that, then you should get a check from the state dollar for dollar for what you have. If it's a transferable tax credit, it's very similar in nature in the sense that it is a tax credit. However, take everything we took, we just said, and now know that the state will not give you a check for it. So you're stuck with a tax credit. And as I mentioned, since you're coming from another state, you probably don't have that LLC or company created in the state or and I've done the application which probably does not have any liabilities. So since the state won't give you a check to offset it, and you can't use it, typically, then what do you do? It's transferable, you sell it, you sell it on the open market. And this is very key to from a budgetary standpoint, because if you think that you're going to get dollar for dollar back on a transferable state, like a Georgia, for example, you're incorrect, you have to know what the market is selling the credits for is the are the credits currently going for 90 cents on the dollar 85 cents on the dollar 87 cents on the dollar. It's a market based on supply and demand. So it can change. So one of the advantages of reaching out to me early is I have a network of contacts. And I would introduce you to my network of brokers and we kind of get a litmus test of what it's going for, so that we can budget appropriately. And then I would just make sure that our clients are getting the best that's out there. And we don't charge for that or anything that's between you and the brokers. But I just kind of act as a liaison. And, you know, finding that information out. So it's very key from the transferable standpoint to know what it's selling. The other big thing is rebates and grants, they're kind of one on the same, there's a little discrepancies with them. But at the end of the day, it boils down to those are cash buckets of cash, you don't have to do a tax return, you don't have to do any filings or any of these additional tax credit requirements. It's just money that is set aside to incentivize you for going there. The kicker with those is usually not all the time. But those are usually case by case basis. Mississippi is like an exception to that. Where they want to pick and choose who they give to Texas grant is like that North Carolina's grant is like that. They want to make sure it's going to somebody that will paint the area in a positive light, because they have limited resources. So you just have to make sure that you go through a vetting process with each of these particular areas, before counting that you'll get the grades or the rebates. So those are kind of there's some little nuances here and there. There's like partially refundable credits like Louisiana where they don't get the full amount back, but a partial amount back instead of dollar for dollar. There is non refundable non transferable like California does for Studios, which can only be used to offset your own tax liability. So like a studio of liability in California, so therefore they can use it to offset their tax liability. So there's those things that are in there, but they're not as common as the four we mentioned prior.

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13:18  

super interesting. You know, Ryan, what does the process of filing for these programs typically entail? Like, what about the reporting requirements?

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13:28  

Well, I mean, I hate to say it, and unfortunately, Cam, I think you might hear it a lot today is that every state is different, every state is a snowflake. They're all very different in their requirements. One state might be very simple as, Hey, make sure you fill out this single page application or intent to film page 30, you know, 10 days before you start filming, and you're in the system, and others might be setting up, you know, local companies, local withholding accounts, a few other hurdles to jump over. It just depends on the state. I wish I had a better answer for that, because we kind of drill into each of the states. But it really just depends. Some are just easier than others. Just assume that for the most part, most of these states and this is a blanket statement. So take it with a grain of salt most of these states want you to apply before your principal begins. There are some exceptions to that Louisiana let you go a year backwards from your application. Georgia, you can apply at the end of principal photography. And there's some other little, you know, areas of the wiggle room with some of these states. But for the most part, keep that in mind when you're budgeting and then reach out to somebody like myself or those GM offices to say, Do you have money left? Do you know, can we do the application now? Is there an application fee? You know, that's something to consider or some of these states do not have a fee, some of them do. And there might be more than one fee, there might be a back end CI that you need to plan for on your budget. So there's a lot of nuances and hidden freaks and crannies with these states. And it's just, it's just key to do your homework. And don't assume that, you know, oh, I obviously, this will be easy. I'll do this application in a week after we start filming. And I'll be fine. Like, try to get ahead.

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15:29  

So that's on the application side, let's say that you properly apply for and are granted a tax credit or some allowance into the program. And then you finish your production, what are typically the reporting requirements for producers once they've taken advantage of a program?

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15:47  

So that's a good question. And once again, it's the snowflake thing, they are all a little different than one of the common threads is, of course, they want to see a payroll report of some kind that shows because for the most part, these states, they either a have, and once again, it's for the most part have some sort of advantage to hiring residents versus non residents, whether that be a higher credit than what the non residents are, or even they don't incentivize non residents at all, like, you know, like Utah doesn't incentivize non residents. So you know, they're growing their resident crew base, which is great for them. And you just need to be aware of that when you go there. Louisiana gives a significant bump for residents versus non resident, North Carolina, it's 25% of the Euro resident or non resident. So it's very different from state to state. But to your question about the reports, so they usually want to see, you know, was this person a resident of the state? Were they indeed working in the state? What fringes were they paid, if there was a required withholding was that and those are really some of the key elements they want to see on these reports, that withholding things, you know, loan outs needs particular withholdings in different states that's coming very, that's becoming very common, and something that producers should be aware of, so that when they're doing their escrows, or doing their Deal Memo with their talent, or anybody else that may need that they need to write in that, hey, you know, I need to make sure I'm doing a 5.75% withholding in Georgia or 4.25%. And in Louisiana, or, you know, whatever it might be, you know, in New Jersey is 6.3. So there's they're very unique withholdings, and you need to make sure you're doing that ahead of time otherwise, that might come out of your budget, if a talent was like, I'm not paying this. Now, just remember, when you're talking about your talent, I have to remind producers all the time, this isn't an income tax withholding. So it's not an additional thing for the incentives. It's an additional requirement. But it's not an additional withholding in the sense that if they file their return in the States, the loans they should get, hopefully, some money back, or if not, it offsets like they're California law. to that. So keep that in mind when discussing these things with your talent, your producers or directors. But to be frank cam, most of these people have worked in an incentive state at this point, because they've been around so long. And so many states are doing the withholdings, that it's kind of become normal. And they're used to it. Also there's usually audit guidelines that they want to see certain reporting on, they want to see all the things we've discussed about resident versus non resident, some states have a completely their own report that they want you to fill out. New York has an employer report thing, it's their form, ie, Texas has one for their grant program, Mississippi has a whole hyperlink Excel sheet that they give you. And I recommend people watching this if Bournemouth is a fantastic program, get in front of that form early, start working on it as you're going through production. They want hyperlinks to every payroll, every cost, every vendor in this sheet. And if you're doing it with production, it's not so bad. If you're doing it retroactively, you might need some help. So these are the types of things I try to express to producers and filmmakers and people that are working on budgets to just kind of be aware of these things.

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19:24  

Super helpful. Now, I mean, you've you've mentioned a number of times that you know, each state is unique in some regard, or their common requirements across states that producers should be aware of, you know, just before they maybe even call you to help figure out where they should go.

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19:39  

Sure. I would say before they reach out to me, there's a few they should be aware of, one would be the minimum spend, which means how much money they're spending in state. Most states there's very few that have no minimum spend, I think New Mexico and West Virginia might be the only ones where there are some lower min. I spin more than others, but you need to be aware of it. So if you're going to Georgia, and you're filming a $250,000, you know, doc, or something of that nature, your documentary will qualify. But you're not hitting the minimum spend of 500,000, which is what they want you to spend in the state. So in that case, I would say, if a producer called me in that exact situation, I would say, do you plan on doing any other productions in Georgia, because then it's worth it to apply? Because Georgia allows you to bundle multiple projects in order to qualify. So that would be an example of like, oh, let's, let's do that. Let's plan for the future. No, we're getting into other states where there's not, there may not be as now. So if you think that you're gonna film a $500,000 show in North Carolina, and it's theatrical, your minimum spend is a million and a half. So you're not going to, you just simply won't hit that. So that may not be an option. And many states have, they will all have different minimum spend, some are lower than others, Massachusetts, 50,000. Illinois is pretty low. I think Mississippi's is one of our 15, thematic 20. So low, you just need to be aware of that before you even jump in. And then secondly, I would ask if they have money left? It's not so much a requirement, a common requirement, but it's a common requirement. It's something you need to know before you even decide to go there, you could be planning to go to a state and some of these states simply have a limited amount of resources. And you can be saying one volunteer at a month, and they could be at and there's just you're not gonna you're just simply not going to get it. I'm dealing with that with one of our clients right now, in a particular state. And it's, then it puts you in a tough spot, if that's how you budget, which is why to go back to why Georgia is so popular. To be frank, they are an uncapped Pro. So people in St. Louis, Massachusetts, people flocked to those states, because as long as nothing changes from a legislative standpoint, if they budget in January, I'm not shooting till December, they can assume that they'll still get some return. And so I would say looking out for and then the minimum spend all the minimum minimum requirements. So if they say, you have to employ a certain number of residents, the way Texas does, you need to be aware of that and then of course, knowing the funding situation is crucial. So

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22:34  

that's a really interesting point I hadn't ever considered. Do the states have real time reporting? Or like, do they let filmmakers know how much is left in a program? Or is that kind of difficult to figure out?

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22:47  

It's not supposed to be difficult, and the film offices are all amazing. I have great relationships with those offices, and they have fantastic websites I advocate everybody do their homework with. And if you are definitely jumping into the pool of a particular state, make sure you reach out to the film office as early as possible. But most of all this money is taxpayers money and has been given to the Film Office through, you know, their state's budgets. allocations are what happened. So in a sense, it's the public's money, right. So they should have access to what's been spent on how much is left, and what's being allocated to. And so yes, it is public knowledge, if they call a Film Office, the Film Office is supposed to say, we have X amount already allocated or we have X amount left, where it gets a little murky is depending on how the state does, do they limit their funds based off of what's been allocated? Meaning somebody put it in an application saying they're gonna get back $2 million? You know, do they say $2 million has been taken from the fund? Or do they wait till the $2 million has been claimed? Take away from the fund. So it's very interesting, I think most states do it based off of what's been allocated, which is why usually when you apply with a certain state office, they will give you some sort of letter saying we if you meet, you know, these requirements of xy and z, then we will give you this amount of money on around this amount of time. And they do that so they can use it as a holding place. But what's interesting is, as you and I know, unfortunately, some of these projects just simply don't get made. And if they don't get made, then that money kind of goes back to the pot. So you might say like, they might tell you they're out of money today and then they find our project fell through. And now all of a sudden, that money is available, which is why some states will say well, we will only allocate the money to you if you have proof of For, like 75% financing or funding place, some states will do that, which is actually kind of similar. So yeah, it's, it's, it is available and supposed to be readily available. But there is some wiggle room, so to speak,

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25:17  

There is a lot of work that goes into utilizing these benefits, it can seem a bit overwhelming. But for our listeners who are eager or encouraged by the notion of using one of these benefits, I'm curious how we can talk about how they can take advantage of maximizing these incentives. So like, when you're consulting with filmmakers, how do you help them choose the best state for their production based off of the program's like, you were just speaking about, like potential programs that could be kept out? I'm sure that that goes into your considerations. But are there other things that when you're really digging into a production with your clients, and with producers, that you specifically like to help orient them towards when choosing a state for their production?

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25:58  

So some of the stuff we already talked about is crucial. So does the state have money? That could be a big deal? Like, you know, we can't, we're not going to work for the state, if there's not enough money. And then of course, knowing the type of production it is. We haven't really talked about that. But some states simply do not incentivize certain types of productions. Connecticut's a great example, I always use, we talked about the economic impact that projects have. And it's been shown that scripted, episodic television is the most economically advantageous type of production to go to an area. So that's really what Connecticut wants, they actually will not incentivize theatrical, what they deem as theatrical. So they really want television, they will do movies of the week and stuff like that. That's interesting, right? Some states will do reality, some won't. Some will do doc, some won't. Tennessee is very unique in the sense that normally, for their grant program, non residents do not qualify, which is something once again to be aware of, but if you're a scripted television show, like Nashville was, their non residents did qualify. So it unlocked certain potentials of the program. So when they come to me, one of the things I ask is, what's the budget size? Do they meet that minimum criteria we talked about earlier? What kind of shows do you know about this type of program? Is this type of program allowed into the incentive? And then does the program have after that, then we just start kind of drilling down into the nuances of how soon this is happening? Do we have time to get the application? Are you aware of transferable or fundable? Are you aware there, there's a back end fee? What the audit requirement is, do you have money for that? Another thing that's really important, and we could probably have a whole sidebar conversation about this camp is are you able to keep up? So a production company, hopefully will be able to take the money if they're the ones applying. But sometimes a studio is involved, if it's like a negative pickup or something, and the studio says, Hey, we want every nickel of it. If it's a television show, the network might say, you have to go for that incentive. And then we want it we want we want when you get back or it's somehow built into the budget, as you know, a net budget, we've kind of backed it out. And then same with commercials, there are commercial incentives as well. New York has its own commercial standalone incentive. And the ad agency may say, go for that incentive. And I want the whole thing. So you have to be aware of that when creating your bid. So all of that plays a role into where we are going? How much are you spending? And you know, how will we approach this?

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28:51  

Speaking of spending, you know, you described earlier that certain states have different thresholds or minimums that you need to spend? Are there other ways that a production budget plays into deciding which incentive program to apply for

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29:02  

so I guess the biggest thing would be as I touched on a little bit, as is resident versus non resident. So if you're budgeting and assuming that, Hey, I am working on a docu series, I'm bringing my whole crew out with me. And you're budgeting and you're going to an area where non residents do not qualify, but you're a docu series. So like you're used to bringing your crew everywhere. Well, that state may not be a great choice for you because you're not going to hire that many locals. So that could play a hand into your budget. Also, something I help people to do all the time, is to do their math. And it sounds so simple, but I'll give you a prime example on a budget. If you're from California, and you just happen to work with a particular camera vendor and you know them, you have connections there and they just give you an amazing discount. out, don't just assume well, I'm going to a particular state. So I gotta find a camera package there. Because, yeah, you might, and yeah, you get a discount on it. But is it a discount, meaning you get an incentive on it because you bought it locally. But is it cheaper than the one that you have, that you've been using and have connections to. So I just tell people to always kind of do your math and know what you're getting into. I think something also to that point is, if you're going into a very busy state, where you don't know if it's busy, and just good reason to reach out to me. But if it is busy, and you assume you're going to crew up there locally, and then it's busy and you couldn't, well, then you assumed you were going to get residents. So you didn't have per diem, you didn't travel, you didn't have all these things built into your budget. And now it becomes an issue because you've got to build it in there. Because you're there and you're like, wait a second, I thought I was going to be able to get most of my crew here locally, but there is for the productions here. There's a temple Studio Shell here, and I simply can't. So those things can play into Did you budget appropriately, do your homework once again, before going to that particular state?

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31:12  

That's really helpful. Could you share a case study or two of productions that have successfully utilize these programs,

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31:19  

there's the big ones that people probably know about. But I do like talking about those, which would be like Walking Dead is a great example of something that went to I believe it's called sin noi, we might get some comments if I'm pronouncing it wrong, solenoid, Georgia. And this was a little town there that was just, you know, a quaint little town, not a lot of shops, not a lot of things. But then Walking Dead went there. And we know everything about that, right. We've seen the history, we know all the shows, the spin offs, and how successful it was. And now that town has blossomed there's a coffee shop there called The Walking Dead, right? I mean, they have, they've been able to use this television show, once again, this economic bomb went there, actors, producers on that show bought houses, they moved their lives there, they sent their children to the schools there. It is a prime example of what all these states want and why they will do the incentives and go through it. And you know, that may not have originally been set for Georgia that may have been sent for a different state. But then they said, hey, we can get 30% back and a transferable credit there. Let's give it a shot. I've also seen this happen with well, Breaking Bad's another great example, you know, New Mexico, great incentive. And they said, well, let's just go to New Mexico with JC incentive. And we'll actually use New Mexico as a backdrop, you cannot watch that show. You cannot watch that show and say that they're not New Mexico, it is a part of the character. As part it is a character in the shell, it's a part of the show. And do not kid yourself to think that the fact that they were getting 25% on what they paid Bryan Cranston, they were getting 25% on their resident crew did not play a hand and then choosing to go there. There are certain hoops to jump through with New Mexico, but they did it. They did it well. And they found very great success. There's also shows like the show hometown on, which is, you know, like a house kind of flipping show. And they're in Laurel, Mississippi, and I've personally visited and after the show it is amazing, what that show has done to that community. And, you know, obviously with that, you know, falls in line with unscripted. And it's kind of a happy accident, I'll say, the fact that they found this talent, and they loved the talent and the family that that they follow in that show just happened to be in Mississippi, which has a terrific rebate program. So, you know, those are some prime examples, you know, on scripted television shows, obviously, there's many movies that have capitalized on this, we know that marble is pretty much, you know, created their own studio in Georgia. There's a reason why. And you know, more states are copying that template. They want that economic bomb once again to drop in their area. And it's work you will see right now we're in a legislative session. It's in the beginning of July, we will see a flood of new legislation come through for states, and many of them are improving their programs. They're making the percentages higher, they're extending their programs and getting more funding. There's a reason why it works if you're able to navigate it successfully.

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34:51  

Ryan that is like a perfect segue into my next line of questioning, which is current trends and the future of film incentives. So my next question literally is What is the current state of film and production legislation in the US and what's going on right now.

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35:06  

So with regards to incentives, once again, I think that you will see, currently a lot of states are increasing their percentage that they're giving back, it seems like the bass is at least 20%. Now, like people are trying to beat 20%, to get over 20%, at the very least. And I want to remind people that, once again, do your math because 20% in a fully rebate state, a full rebate state could actually be better than let's say, a 25%. transferable credit, if that makes sense. Because remember, you gotta sell it for less than on the dollar. So don't always just chase the higher number, make sure that that higher number is indeed a higher number, like there's little nuances to it, depending on the type of program it has. So the trend will definitely be to have more percentages, I can say that that sounds so bland and lame. But here are some of the new trends I think we will start seeing more and more in Illinois as way ahead of the game with this diversity requirements, and having inclusion in your crew and cast. Illinois had this for years, where this is just a requirement to show your best case effort. California has this now New York has this now, I believe even Oregon has this now, New Jersey actually will incentivize your effort to have a diverse crew and cast and get an extra 2% There, you actually get an extra 4% They have another one, but it's a little harder to get the 2%. But it's there. And what's the other one on good dunga. I'm saying that right County in New York, they have there they give a bonus to, for striving for diversity. So I think that will definitely be a trend that we will see to continue to grow. I also think I don't want to use the word forcing, but requiring people to have some sort of give back from an educational standpoint. So you know, New Mexico, and I think Oklahoma and a few others in Louisiana actually have requirements where they say like, you know, either hire interns or you have to give something back to an educational institution or nonprofit, or something that leads to improving their infrastructure and their crew base. And I think this is really smart. Because at the end of the day, the producers want more crew base in these areas, and more experienced crew base, so they want them to get bigger and better. And the state wants that as well, so that their residents are being employed. So I think more and more states will start having that type of requirement or have bonuses tied to it. And then I think the last thing would be we'll see more and more local incentives. We've been seeing this for years and just building and building, or what I mean by a local incentive would be you know, there's obviously a Louisiana incentive. But there's Jefferson Parish and St. There's a St. Bernard incentive. There's obviously Georgians, but there's a savannah incentive. I think we'll see this more and more with states, Minnesota, I think has three local incentives. And they can all actually build on each other, which is kind of cool. So I think we'll start seeing this in states, especially with states that may not have a program yet. Florida is a good example, Florida had a terrific program. And unfortunately, they don't have a state program right now. But Tampa has a program and Miami Dade has a program. And this is key for people that are chasing talent or creatively have to go to a particular area and may think, oh, there's not a program there for me. Don't do that. Do you do your homework and find out is there a program buried there? Like is there a county or a parish or a particular area that has an incentive that we aren't even aware of? Oklahoma has the Cherokee Nation and center which is actually phenomenal, it actually will incentivize more than just people that are part of the Cherokee Nation. It's very good, Shirley. And these are things that you can bundle if the state has an incentive already. So you can kind of double dip and build back in your return. It's also a good litmus test for a state to have a local incentive like if Kansas City Missouri is a good example, I think Last of Us film there and was very successful there. And I think they may have maximized that program. So now the state of Missouri, which does not have a program, has been fighting to get it back and I think they will, just needs to be signed at this point by the governor. And that's pretty cool. Like it's just, it's great to see that so I think we'll see more of that.

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39:53  

Ryan, that is amazing. Thank you so much for really going in depth with me and like explaining all of this. I hope our listeners found it useful. If they did, and I'm sure that they did you know, where can they find more information about you and your work? And how can they get in touch with you if they have any questions or need advice about film incentives for their own productions?

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40:13  

Sure. So my digital door, so to speak, is always open. My email address is our Broussard. That's B R O U S S A R D at Wrapbook.com. You can find us on our website, you can find information about incentives there as well, and a lot more to come. But once again, as you mentioned at the top of this, helping with budgets, helping people decide where to go, using a network of resources, whether it's brokers, auditors, even just being a liaison with the film office. That's why I'm here to help not only Wrapbook’s clients, but anybody free of charge with the value add service. So feel free to reach out to me. I'm not going to send you a bill afterwards. I assure you, we'll come. I might send you a bill after this when this has taken place. No but feel free to reach out to me. And I look forward to it. It really energizes me so I hope people take me up on it. Awesome. Well Ryan, thanks for joining me and I'll see you later, Charles good. Thank you